4.0982 The Languages of Humanist (10/254)

Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear (EDITORS@BROWNVM.BITNET)
Tue, 5 Feb 91 15:12:48 EST

Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 4, No. 0982. Tuesday, 5 Feb 1991.


(1) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 91 19:34:20 EST (21 lines)
From: Allen Renear <EDITORS@BROWNVM>
Subject: The Languages of Humanist

(2) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 1991 12:33:01 GMT+0800 (25 lines)
From: A_ARISTAR@FENNEL.CC.UWA.OZ.AU (Anthony Aristar)
Subject: RE: 4.0964 Le Francais on Humanist

(3) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 17:18:25 EST (15 lines)
From: Germaine Warkentin <WARKENT@vm.epas.utoronto.ca>
Subject: French on Humanist

(4) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 21:13:38 EST (18 lines)
From: Christian Boissonnas <CBY@CORNELLC>
Subject: Re: 4.0964 Le Francais on Humanist

(5) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 91 21:09:03 -0500 (38 lines)
From: <joel@lambada.acs.unc.edu>
Subject: Le francais on HUMANIST

(6) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 17:14:00 PST (29 lines)
From: Michael_Kessler.Hum@mailgate
Subject: Le Francais on Humanist

(7) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 23:54 CST (13 lines)
From: <THEOBIBLE@STMARYTX>
Subject: LE FRANCAIS

(8) Date: 1 February 91, 10:35:41 SET (17 lines)
From: Marc Eisinger +33 (1) 40 01 51 20 EISINGER at FRIBM11
Subject: [Languages & Humanist]

(9) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 91 08:30:04 MDT (21 lines)
From: DUSKNOX@IDBSU
Subject: Re: 4.0964 Le Francais on Humanist (3/62)

(10) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 91 09:15:43 EST (27 lines)
From: Michel Pierssens <R36254@UQAM>
Subject: French on Humanist

(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 91 19:34:20 EST
From: Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear <EDITORS@BROWNVM>
Subject: The Languages of Humanist

Having just come on duty for my stint as Humanist editor, I thought
I might make sure that Elaine's description of the Humanist policy
on language doesn't get lost in the discussion.

We have _never_ treated a Humanist contribution differently because it
was in a language other than English. Our policy on language is
inherited from Willard McCarty, Humanist's founding Editor...

The lingua franca of discussion is English; although
contributions in other languages are welcome, they are
unlikely to be understood by a majority of the members.
-- The Humanist Guidebook

We understand the first and third clauses to be merely descriptive,
but the middle one we take to be normative.

-- Allen
(2) --------------------------------------------------------------35----
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 1991 12:33:01 GMT+0800
From: A_ARISTAR@FENNEL.CC.UWA.OZ.AU (Anthony Aristar)
Subject: RE: 4.0964 Le Francais on Humanist (3/62)

I'm sorry that Humanist became embroiled in a controversy which was not
of its own making. The message which relegated the French version of
the ICL '92 to a listserv had its origin on Linguist, the mailing list
which I edit, and the decision to so relegate it was mine. I did this
not out of contempt for French, but simply as a matter of sheer
practicality. Linguist has its home on a Unix machine, with a very
slow, inefficient mailer. To have sent out the whole ICL program, in
both languages, would have entailed sending a posting of a much larger
size than the bulk mailer we use is comfortable with. Since the vast
majority of our subscribers are English-speaking, we sent out the
English version, and posted the French version to the listserv.

At the risk of offending French-speakers, I should further add that I do
not believe it to be good policy to post multiple versions of the same
message in different languages. We, on Linguist, will post messages in
any language which even a minority of our members understand. But
duplication of postings in multiple languages is a practise which is
likely to alienate as many people as it placates.

Anthony Aristar
Moderator, Linguist
(3) --------------------------------------------------------------22----
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 17:18:25 EST
From: Germaine Warkentin <WARKENT@vm.epas.utoronto.ca>
Subject: French on Humanist

Good for Andrew Oliver! Though I am not French-speaking and cannot
write that beautiful language, I am French-reading, and am prepared to
defend (in my own beautiful language!) the role of French on Humanist.
Actually, since I joined about a year ago I've been delighted to see
messages in French on Humanist and hope they keep coming (despite the
howl of rage from Saskatchewan a while ago about the problem of
accents). So far we're still a bi-lingual nation up here, so take heed
all you Yanks, and get out your dictionaries (or power them up, I
guess). All right, all right -- in answer to the inevitable question
about where I got my name, my mother read it in a book. A bientot -
Germaine.
(4) --------------------------------------------------------------24----
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 21:13:38 EST
From: Christian Boissonnas <CBY@CORNELLC>
Subject: Re: 4.0964 Le Francais on Humanist (3/62)

In reply to Andrew Oliver's vituperation about French on HUMANIST.

Que vous etes sensible, Monsieur Oliver! Je suis Francais, a part
entiere, et je ne me sens pas brime. Je me sens plutot gene que
quelqu'un, avec qui j'ai a priori des points communs certains, embarasse
the monde francais en condamnant si violemment un presume mefait sans en
connaitre tous les elements.

Elaine and Allen, on behalf of the rest of the French-speaking world, I
apologize for the unseemly outburst of a man whom, I can assure you,
does not speak for me. Your gracious apology was not necessary, and
your explanation most welcome.

Christian M. Boissonnas
(5) --------------------------------------------------------------49----
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 91 21:09:03 -0500
From: <joel@lambada.acs.unc.edu>
Subject: Le francais on HUMANIST

The choice of language of discourse in an international discussion group,
c'est encore plus problematique, since we may expect so many of our
colleagues to read, write and (and/or?) speak one or more languages in
addition to their native one(s). C'est du deja vu all over again, but
the dismay any slights may cause others justifies the reconsideration.
Unfortunately, the center of our multilingual Venn diagram does not
permit the wide range of language choice that we all would like. Should
we write in franglais? deutschlish? ivran~ol? (Ladino speakers are
favored here.)

I recently posted a message about translation software to a list begun
by francophone colleagues. I posted the message in French even though,
when I checked the membership list, the majority of recipients appeared
to reside collectively in strongly anglophone countries. Since the
announcements of said list were usually begun in French and sometimes
(perhaps always as of late) repeated in English, I tentatively assumed
that everyone, or almost everyone, read French. One colleague wrote
back privately asking me for the English translation of what I'd posted,
which I happily provided. She had recognized enough of the French to
know that it contained items of interest to her, but items which
remained fuzzy.

Although we HUMANIST correspondents cannot translate each and every
posting for every language requested, perhaps we could sound out
colleagues to form an informal translation service which seriously
interested HUMANISTs could call on, if only for a key sentence or
paragraph translation.

Cordially,
Joel D. Goldfield
Fellow in Foreign Languages
Inst. for Academic Tech., UNC-Chapel Hill,
Associate Professor of French
Plymouth State College (NH, USA)

(6) --------------------------------------------------------------40----
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 17:14:00 PST
From: Michael_Kessler.Hum@mailgate
Subject: Le Francais on Humanist

I am not very sympathetic to the argument that French should be used
because historically the forum originated in a country that is
officially bilingual. Pushing the issue a little further, one could
argue that its present location demands Spanish as the other language.
But E-Mail is international, and we surely have a few participants from
other "major" languages who would be happy to see the use of their
language on this forum. On the other hand, I agree that an
announcement presented bilingually to the editors should be published in
that format.

To my knowledge, there is no universal language (nothwithstanding the
claims of Esperanto), and if one desires an exchange, some common bases
have to be established, language among them. While the bilingual
person may be able to participate in a discussion by answering in a
different language, the answer may very well be lost on those who do not
understand that latter language. I am trying to imagine the value of
the contributions on Metaphor and War from Italy and Finland, had they
been written in the language of those countries. Si j'avais ecrit
cette reponse en francais, combien de lecteurs l'auraient comprise,
puisque l'anglais est un donne pour ce reseau-ci?

MKessler@HUM.SFSU.EDU
or
MKessler.HUM@MAILGATE.SFSU.EDU

(7) --------------------------------------------------------------16----
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 91 23:54 CST
From: <THEOBIBLE@STMARYTX>
Subject: LE FRANCAIS

MOI, JE SUIS ANGLOPHONE DE NAISSANCE, FRANCOPHONE DE L'EXPERIENCE D'AVOIR
VECU EN SUISSE SEPT ANS. J'AIME BIEN RECEVOIR DES ANNONCES EN FRANCAIS.
I SEE NO REASON WHATEVER WHY HUMANIST CANNOT BE POLYGLOT. THERE ARE
THOUSANDS OF US WHO ARE LITERATE IN TWO OR EVEN MORE LANGUAGES. WHY
CONFINE US TO ONE? AQUI EN SAN ANTONIO, NOS GUSTA HABLAR TAMBIEN
ESPANOL, O AL MENOS TEX-MEX. OF ALL PLACES, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT
HUMANIST SHOULD BE POLYGLOT. LATINE LOQUAMUR!
CHARLIE MILLER
(8) --------------------------------------------------------------21----
Date: 1 February 91, 10:35:41 SET
From: Marc Eisinger +33 (1) 40 01 51 20 EISINGER at FRIBM11

Subject : Ethnocentrism stoke again

Once for all non-US citizen should realize that for US citizen the
non-US part of the world is something they just don't understand (when
they realize there's one ...). Thus the withdraw of the french version
of the Montreal conference, thus the so-called exotic language in a very
recent note (exotic to whom ?), thus the use of typically US jokes and
acronyms no one else understand, etc.

So non-US member of that list should either unsuscribe or wait with some
patience for the 1 to 1000 interesting note.

Marc Eisinger, Paris (the french one).
(9) --------------------------------------------------------------28----
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 91 08:30:04 MDT
From: DUSKNOX@IDBSU
Subject: Re: 4.0964 Le Francais on Humanist (3/62)

Andrew Oliver is being overly-sensitive; I sincerely hope the editors
are not unduly influenced by his criticism. When I see a note posted
in French I gird my loins and plow through it, creaking with rust as I
go. I can handle German, too. When the rare message comes across in
another language I goad myself that I've not learned that particular
language. As a humanist, I feel learning other languages is a duty.

I would hope that at least the members of this electronic community
would be able to transcend the provincialism of petty nationalism and
can leave behind the nineteenth century. Were we to oblige Oliver, we
would seeing notices posted in every human tongue, so as not to offend
any national group. Here's hoping we can yet see beyond the boundaries
of tongue and tribe.

Ellis 'Skip' Knox, Ph.D.
Historian, Data Center Associate
Boise State University DUSKNOX@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU
(10) --------------------------------------------------------------29---
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 91 09:15:43 EST
From: Michel Pierssens <R36254@UQAM>
Subject: French on Humanist

I agree with Andrew Oliver that we see too little french on the networks
but beyond regretting the fact I frankly don't see what we can do about
it. The only way for french to increase its visibility and use is by
setting up inter- national lists or groups anchored in a francophone
area or institution (such a list will soon start operating out of
Montreal, by the way, in the form of an electronic journal -- although
it will be bilingual rather than strictly french). Another way to
increase the attraction of french postings would be to get more French,
Belgian or Swiss to contribute ideas to humanistic debates on such lists
as HUMANIST. The only problem is that computer resources in Europe are
a virtual monopoly of scientists (those toys are expensive and rare) I
know of very few french humanists that even have minimal access to
computers and those who do rarely use e-mail for other than technical
purposes: they much prefer discussing things "de vive voix". Which may
be a consequence of our different geographies: it's easy to meet people
when you're in Paris. Not so in North America. So, that leaves us, the
north american francophones, a very small bunch indeed! It seems to me
that communicating in english with anglophone colleagues gives us a real
advantage over both unilingualfrench- and english-speaking partners and
increases tremendously the scope of our information gathering process.
This is, obviously, the optimist version of our situation...I'd be
curious to know what the interest would be for a mostly french list of
more or less the same type as HUMANIST???