6.0174 Rs: "Civil War"; Guys; Borges (3/67)

Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear (EDITORS@BROWNVM.BITNET)
Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:56:02 EDT

Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 6, No. 0174. Friday, 31 Jul 1992.

(1) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 09:56:01 -0400 (22 lines)
From: "Daniel Traister" <traister@a1.relay.upenn.edu>
Subject: RE: 6.0167 Qs: Civil War

(2) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 08:47:55 CST (27 lines)
From: (James Marchand) <marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: guys

(3) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:53:14 EDT (18 lines)
Subject: 6.0168 Rs: Borges; 'you guys' (3/61)

(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 09:56:01 -0400
From: "Daniel Traister" <traister@a1.relay.upenn.edu>
Subject: RE: 6.0167 Qs: Civil War; Software Faire; 1569 Papal Bull (3/54)

Veselin Miskovic is looking for a copy of *The history of the civil war in
America*. This was a work projected to appear in several volumes only one
of which seems ever to have been published. It is ascribed by Joseph Sabin
to "Captain Hall"; other evidence suggests as an author one "William
Cornwallis Hall"; the Library of Congress used to denominate the author as
"John Hall." The book is number 29740 in Sabin's bibliography. There are
copies, in this country, reported by RLIN at Brown University, the
University of Minnesota, and Florida State University. I have checked no
further since I expect this to be a reasonably common book--although
perhaps not all *that* common in south-central Europe.

Daniel Traister, Curator of Special Collections
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
215 898 7088 (phone); 215 898 0559 (fax)
traister@a1.relay.upenn.edu@in (e-mail)

(2) --------------------------------------------------------------37----
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 08:47:55 CST
From: (James Marchand) <marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: guys

I am worried that we may confuse two subjects: 1. you guys used to make up
for the lack of a distinct plural form for you (analogous to y'all) and
2. guys used in a genderless sense (= guys and dolls). On the first: I
am a card-carrying southerner, and I remember being shocked by this use
of you guys, youse guys, yez guys on the part of my colleagues when I went
into the Army in 1944 (they were all from Buffalo), cf. E. C. Hills, "The
Plural Forms of You," American Speech, 1926, p. 133. I have since studied
and work as an interviewer for a dialect atlas, and am no longer shocked
by anything. One hears: y'all, you-all, y'all all, you-uns, you-unses,
youse, yez, you guys, youse guys, yez guyz, all vaguely in the same usage
as German ihr, that is, as a plural for you and as a polite form (old use
of German ihr).
2. Guy as genderless is also at least as old as my induction into the Army
(1944). It may derive from the above, but Matthews is quite wrong when he
affirms for guy that it applies only to a male. Cf. Edward Hackett, "The
Ambivalence of Guy," Western Humanities Review 8 (1954) 273-4. It being
of unknown derivation and having arrived in the language about the same
time as y'all, it can be that it meant male and female from the beginning,
or that it derived its femininity from the form you guys. Gender derail-
ment is not an uncommon phenomenon. Those of us of the rural presuasion
cannot believe it when a bull is called a cow, but look at English stud and
German Stute.
Jim Marchand
(3) --------------------------------------------------------------22----
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:53:14 EDT
Subject: 6.0168 Rs: Borges; 'you guys' (3/61)

I've got Borges' *Dreamtigers* open in front of me. According to
the text (unfortunately I have it only in English), the extract
called "On Rigor in Science" concerning the cartographers of
congruency is from "Suarez Miranda: *Viajes de Varones
Prudentes*, Book Four, chapter XLV, Le'rida, 1658". Assuming
that here as elsewhere B's footnotes stand up to checking
(Suarez is *not* in the MIRLYN database at University of
Michigan), the idea is considerably older than we've been

Eric Rabkin esrabkin@umichum.bitnet
Department of English esrabkin@um.cc.umich.edu
University of Michigan office: 313-764-2553
Ann Arbor MI 48109-1045 dept : 313-764-6330