[1] From: Randall Jones <rljones@email.byu.edu> (19)
Subject: Quotation?
[2] From: Jim Marchand <marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> (12)
Subject: Goethe quote
[3] From: Tim Reuter <T.Reuter@soton.ac.uk> (17)
Subject: masterly restraint
[4] From: Jim Marchand <marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> (3)
Subject: Goethe quote
[5] From: Stephen Pocock <stephen.pocock@chadwyck.co.uk> (78)
Subject: RE: 12.0466 edn of Erotemata? quotation?
--[1]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:17:36 +0000
From: Randall Jones <rljones@email.byu.edu>
Subject: Quotation?
The quotation that Wendell Piez refers to is indeed from Goethe. It
is line 13 from the second part of a poem titled "Das Sonnett"
1 Natur und Kunst, sie scheinen sich zu fliehen
2 Und haben sich, eh' man es denkt, gefunden;
3 Der Widerwille ist auch mir verschwunden,
4 Und beide scheinen gleich mich anzuziehen.
5 Es gilt wohl nur ein redliches Bemuehen!
6 Und wenn wir erst in abgemessnen Stunden
7 Mit Geist und Fleiss uns an die Kunst gebunden,
8 Mag frei Natur im Herzen wieder gluehen.
9 So ist's mit aller Bildung auch beschaffen:
10 Vergebens werden ungebundne Geister
11 Nach der Vollendung reiner Hoehe streben.
12 Wer Grosses will, muss sich zusammenraffen;
13 In der Beschraenkung zeigt sich erst der Meister,
14 Und das Gesetz nur kann uns Freiheit geben.
Hamburger Edition, Volume 1, P 245.
I'll leave it to more qualified colleagues to help with the
translation.
Randall Jones
--[2]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:18:06 +0000
From: Jim Marchand <marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Goethe quote
The line "In der Beschraenkung zeigt sich erst der Meister" is from a sonnet
written by Goethe upon the opening of the new Playhouse in Lauchstaedt on
the 26th of June, 1802. It was a part of the prologue, Scene 19. This was a
thought he was wandering around with at the time. In my little Insel Verlag
_Goethes Gedichte in zeitlicher Folge_, 1.489, it is grouped with another
sonnet with the same thought. It is often called just Sonett or Natur und
Kunst. It means: "It is not until limitations are put on him that the
master really shows himself." There is a famous poem by Verlaine which
expresses the same thought: "Onyx, email." As he says in the preceding
sonnet: "Denn eben die Beschraenkung laesst sich lieben, wenn sich die
Geister gar gewaltig regen." (You can even love rules if the spirit moves
you hard enough). Traduttore traditore.
Jim Marchand.
--[3]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:18:22 +0000
From: Tim Reuter <T.Reuter@soton.ac.uk>
Subject: masterly restraint
It's from the sestet of a sonnet on 'Art and Nature':
Wer Groszes will, musz sich zusammenraffen;
In der Beschr"ankung zeigt sich erst der Meister,
Und das Gesetz nur kann uns Freiheit geben.
[who strives for greatness, must pull himself together
mastery is seen most clearly when constrained,
and law alone can give us freedom.]
Often quoted as if mastery was shown through *self*restraint, but
the original context suggests that it is as much a matter of
freely submitting to restrictions imposed by Art:
Tim Reuter
----------------------
# Tim Reuter
# Department of History, University of Southampton
# tel. +44 1703 594868 (home: 552623; fax: 593458)
# email: tr@soton.ac.uk
# http://www.soton.ac.uk/~tr/tr.html
# ALFRED CONFERENCE: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wmc/alfred.html
--[4]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:18:57 +0000
From: Jim Marchand <marchand@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Goethe quote
Oops! That was Theophile Gautier, the Goethe fan. A common idea, but I have
always thought he got it from Goethe, whom he admired so heartedly. Sorry
for the glitch, but working with the devil's tools on a Sunday ...
Jim Marchand.
--[5]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:20:03 +0000
From: Stephen Pocock <stephen.pocock@chadwyck.co.uk>
Subject: RE: 12.0466 edn of Erotemata? quotation?
The source of the quote _is_ a Goethe poem (ref follows):
Natur und Kunst sie scheinen sich zu fliehen
1 Natur und Kunst sie scheinen sich zu fliehen,
2 Und haben sich, eh' man es denkt, gefunden;
3 Der Widerwille ist auch mir verschwunden,
4 Und beide scheinen gleich mich anzuziehen.
5 Es gilt wohl nur ein redliches Bemühen!
6 Und wenn wir erst in abgemess'nen Stunden
7 Mit Geist und Fleiß uns an die Kunst gebunden,
8 Mag frei Natur im Herzen wieder glühen.
9 So ist's mit aller Bildung auch beschaffen:
10 Vergebens werden ungebundne Geister
11 Nach der Vollendung reiner Höhe streben.
12 Wer Großes will muß sich zusammenraffen;
13 In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister,
14 Und das Gesetz nur kann uns Freiheit geben.
quoted here from Goethe's Werke (Sophien-Ausgabe), 1. Abtheilung, 4. Band
(1891), p.129, in the section 'Kunstgedichte und Gedichte zu Bildern'. Orig.
pub. 1887-1919 Hermann Böhlaus Nachfolger Weimar GmbH and Co. and extracted
here from the Chadwyck-Healey CD-ROM edition of 1995.
As for the translation, the previous line of context is important - the
'muss sich zusammenraffen' implies the discipline of limiting oneself,
specialising. Only then is greatness possible. Hope that helps.
-----Original Message-----
From: Humanist Discussion Group [mailto:humanist@kcl.ac.uk]
Sent: 27 February 1999 20:28
To: Humanist Discussion Group
Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 12, No. 466.
Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
<http://www.princeton.edu/~mccarty/humanist/>
<http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/humanist/>
[1] From: "David L. Gants" <dgants@english.uga.edu> (10)
Subject: Erotemata
[2] From: Wendell Piez <wapiez@mulberrytech.com> (16)
Subject: Re: 12.0460 quotation? images?
--[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:20:12 +0000
From: "David L. Gants" <dgants@english.uga.edu>
Subject: Erotemata
>> From: "Massimo Forconi" <MF1107@mclink.it>
Do you know an available fac-simile edition of Moschopoulos' or
Chrysoloras' Erotemata or anyone's grammar comparable? I am interested
in compiling a Greek Primer inspired to Humanistic Grammatical methods.
Does anyone know about any already done modern Greek grammar of this
kind?
Friendly yours
--[2]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:01:05 +0000
From: Wendell Piez <wapiez@mulberrytech.com>
Subject: Re: 12.0460 quotation? images?
HUMANIST readers:
Can any reader of this list direct me to the source of a quote,
purported to be from Goethe?
"In der Beschraenkung zeigt sich erst der Meister"
("The master appears first through curtailment.")
This is quoted by the English literary critic Walter Pater, but without
citing its source. (I've quoted it from him a number of times; finally
someone
asked me for its original location.)
Any perspectives on translating the line would also be welcome. Should
it be "only the master"...? Is there an overlapping of senses?
As for "distance learning," I am presently trying to curtail some
thoughts for the list.
Best regards,
Wendell
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