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Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 32, No. 399. Department of Digital Humanities, King's College London Hosted by King's Digital Lab www.dhhumanist.org Submit to: humanist@dhhumanist.org [1] From: Dr. Herbert WenderSubject: Re: [Humanist] 32.396: the McGann-Renear debate (19) [2] From: Desmond Schmidt Subject: Re: [Humanist] 32.396: the McGann-Renear debate (25) [3] From: Gabriel Egan Subject: Re: [Humanist] 32.396: the McGann-Renear debate (31) --[1]------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 2019-01-29 22:19:45+00:00 From: Dr. Herbert Wender Subject: Re: [Humanist] 32.396: the McGann-Renear debate Do you remeber Humanist 32.176: releasing the hares (resp. 173 "On Annotations"): [quote] It is for this reason, or something like it, that I take what Ronald Haentjens Dekker or David Birnbaum says about data structures for the representation of text seriously, but not what some other scholars say about that topic. Jerome McGann has suggested indirectly that his rejection of SGML and XML is analogous to quantum theory's rejection of Newtonian physics. But I have sought in vain in his work for any alternative suggestion concrete enough to implement (let alone one that works better for scholarly computing than SGML and XML). I fear that from where I sit, McGann's attitude towards SGML and XML looks much more like the Flat Earth Society's rejection of Newtonian physics, or creation scientsts' rejection of geology, than like quantum physics. [/quote] Greetings, Herbert --[2]------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 2019-01-29 13:54:13+00:00 From: Desmond Schmidt Subject: Re: [Humanist] 32.396: the McGann-Renear debate "Text is renditional" - what is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to justify the fact that XML encoding blurs the distinction between semantic and renditional aspects of markup? Because it sure as hell does. But what are we going to do with the semantic aspects of markup, exactly? Are we going to analyse marked-up texts of novels and discover that the meaning of chapters is that they are composed of paragraphs? Or that [author] tags in poems by Charles Harpur quite often contain the words "Charles Harpur" Wow. Now sometimes in newspapers the author is in a smallcaps font. Does that mean that we are going to render all authors in smallcaps? Of course not. Where it occurs we will add an extra smallcaps tag. So there is zero renditional data in the tag. We might as well delete all the [author] tags because they are useless. The only markup worth having IS renditional. You can't markup all desirable semantic aspects of a text without spending $10,000 per page and then no one could read it. So even then it is worthless. You're better off marking up a text lightly with renditional features and then extracting meaning with a concept mining tool or AI. Desmond Schmidt eResearch, Queensland University of Technology --[3]------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 2019-01-29 08:24:18+00:00 From: Gabriel Egan Subject: Re: [Humanist] 32.396: the McGann-Renear debate Dear HUMANISTs Patrick Sahle wrote: > Texts are not hierarchical -- markup languages are. I would want to defend the claim by Allen H. Renear and others that texts are indeed essentially hierarchical. Teaching computational methods to English Literature students, I would describe this insight, which we approach through DeRose et al.'s essay "What is text, really?", as a revelation to them. Students repeatedly express astonishment that nobody had told them about tree structures before, and once they learn about them they see them everywhere. They do of course spot that some literary texts resist hierarchies, and they take that in their stride in the same way that they take some poems violating the meters they are written in. The norm is reinscribed as the norm by the very violations of it. I'd be interested to hear Patrick Sahle expand on his remark that "even character encoding conveys textual meaning by renditional features". Regards Gabriel Egan _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe at: http://dhhumanist.org/Restricted List posts to: humanist@dhhumanist.org List info and archives at at: http://dhhumanist.org Listmember interface at: http://dhhumanist.org/Restricted/ Subscribe at: http://dhhumanist.org/membership_form.php
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